If a person choses to "show" their dog, it can not be fixed. Why?

[duececoupe]

We need to stress the importance of Spaying and neutering.How can we get the kennel clubs to help?

[doggslover]

We need to stress the importance of Spaying and neutering.How can we get the kennel clubs to help?

Hi, Duececoupe. I'm new here and was just browsing when I saw your post and felt a need to respond. I'm not sure how old you are or what your background is, so my apologies if I'm sayings some things you already know.

First, conformation shows are not "beauty" contests. People don't spend a lot of time and money to have someone tell them how cute their dogs are. Conformation shows are for the purpose of having breeding stock evaluated as representatives of the breed. Ones that are evaluated as being outstanding representatives are rewarded with championships. In this manner, breeders and dog fanciers are attempting to ensure that only the very best dogs are bred. This involves a lot of things, such as how well the dog is put together (something experienced dog people can tell by putting their hands on them and feeling how the shoulders are angulated, how well their fronts and rears are put together for proper movement, etc.).

Second, the breed clubs have been working for a long time -- even before spaying and neutering became a popular banner for everyone, knowledgeable or not, to pick up-- to get the message out about the importance of limiting the numbers of dogs. That's why the people who belong to those clubs that breed also participate in conformation shows. In addition, most, if not all of the breed clubs encourage their members to have spay/neuter clauses in their contracts when they sell pet-quality pups. Most conscientious breeders breed rarely and when they do so, it's to improve the breed, not just to have puppies to sell. To improve the breed, they breed the "best to the best." Breedings, therefore, are done with a great deal of thought and care. Although I'm sure that every responsible dog breeder you could talk to would tell you that there's nothing more rewarding than having a healthy litter of pups, they limit the number of litters they have, for the good of the breed and their dogs. They only breed their bitches a few times (sometimes just once, but most I know rarely breed their bitches more than three times).

If you're saying that you think that ALL dogs in existence today should be spayed or neutered, I'd like for you to think for a moment about what that would mean. It would mean that this would be the last generation of dogs on earth, if this were to be extended worldwide. The dogs that we have right now would be the very last ones ever to be in existence. I can't imagine that you hate dogs and want to see them become an extinct species, so I'm guessing that you just haven't thought things through to their logical conclusion.

You may be saying, "what about all of those poor dogs in pounds and rescues?" There's a popular saying now that every pup born deprives one of those dogs from ever finding its "forever" home, but this isn't true.

First off, some people don't want or aren't equipped to take on the medical or temperament problems that pound and rescue dogs often have. For those angels who are willing to do so, I say they are very special people. But the facts are that many of the dogs that end up in there do have medical or temperament problems that their previous owners couldn't cope with. Sometimes, it's not the dog's fault -- as in the cases of abuse. Sometimes, the problems are the result of poor breeding (meaning that they were bred by someone who was NOT conscientious about breeding good quality pups and only wanted to breed to have puppies for sale).

At any rate, I don't think it's fair to point fingers and judge someone badly because they want a healthy, temperamentally sound dog. Rescue dogs aren't for everybody, and I don't think a person should be made to feel guilty because of that.

Second, in regards to forcing responsible breeders who show their dogs in conformation shows to spay and neuter their dogs because of the dogs in rescue -- that's not fair either. They are working hard to try to breed the very best dogs possible and make the breed better and better with each generation. You'll rarely find a well-bred dog in a rescue situation because responsible breeders stay in touch with the people who buy their puppies and have stipulations in their contracts that if these people can't or don't want to keep the dog, the breeder will take them back. Believe me, the last thing a reputable breeder wants is for one of his or her pups to show up on a rescue page. Their peers can be brutal when things like this happen, even if it's a bit of a stretch, as in a case I saw not long ago. Back in the late 1990s, a well-known breeder allowed another well-known breeder to use one of her studs. Breeder A, the stud owner, lived several states away from Breeder B, the owner of the female. Both had good reputations as breeders. Out of the ensuing litter, there was one pup that went on to get her championship. Now, remember, Breeder A's part in all of this was to provide stud service and she never had any of the ensuing pups from this one litter in her possession.

So Breeder B's pup from the litter gets her championship. Shortly thereafter, Breeder B was in an accident and died. Because she'd done the respoinsible thing and made provisions for her dogs in her will, all of them, including the champion female, went to Breeder C, another well-known, reputable breeder.

Breeder C had the champ pup for several years and even had a litter from her. By this time, Breeder A is way out of the picture, right? Wrong. When Breeder C died last year, her husband, who wasn't involved in dogs and didn't know better, allowed an auction company to talk him into putting his wife's dogs up for auction (Breeder C, unfortunately had not made provisions for her dogs in her will, but being young and healthy, probably didn't even have a will).

One of the dogs in the auction was the pup that was sired by Breeder A's stud almost 10 years ago. A rescue organization saw Breeder A's name on the pedigree in the auction bill and went to the auction, spending a lot of money to collect her. A good portion of that money came from Breeder A, whom the rescue had contacted when they saw her dog in the auction. Now, remember, Breeder A had NEVER had possession of this dog and may not have even seen her in person. Still, when her fellow club members found out that a dog that had been sired by one of Breeder A's dogs nearly 10 years earlier had through a tragic course of circumstances, ended up in an auction, she was severely and publicly rebuked and criticized.

So I suggest that you understand that the breed clubs already know the problems with dog overpopulation and have been working to do their part to not contribute to the problem for many, many years.

If you'd like a cause that would have more meaning, let's talk about the backyard puppymillers who fly under the radar with no one to regulate their actions -- the ones who start breeding their bitches on their very first season and breed them everytime they come into heat so they can sell puppies -- and continue to do this until the bitch is spent and her health is ruined, while still calling her their family pet. The breeders who steal reputable breeders' pedigrees (easy enough to do on the Internet) and then lie to their customers about their dogs' pedigrees -- who never register their litters with the AKC and tell their customers that the dogs they sell are AKC registered and need nothing more than the bogus pedigrees the breeder himself or herself has typed up on their computers for registration. These are the types of dogs that end up in rescue and pounds because their breeders didn't care and probably didn't know how to breed temperamentally sound, healthy dogs.

Let's also talk about the groups that are paying poor people in third-world countries to raise mixed breed dogs to import into the U.S. and put into shelters that don't have enough dogs to justify them staying in existence. Are you aware that in Massachusetts, one of these dogs had rabies and bit three people, leaning a representative there to introduce legislation making it illegal for shelters and rescues to continue importing dogs to boost their numbers?

About this for a cause -- irresponsible pet ownership. A lot of dogs end up in pounds and rescues simply because their owners don't want them any longer -- either they're getting old, or they have health problems the owners don't want to pay for, or they're simply tired of that dog and want another puppy.

I hope I haven't offended you, but I think you're literally barking up the wrong tree when you start implying that the breed clubs don't understand the importance of spaying and neutering, and implying that conformation dogs should be neutered, which would defeat the purpose of the shows.

Doggslover

[clowndino]

Well thought out and written post!
Thanks

[RobinP]

Very well said

[Sugars_Kentucky_Mama]

Hi, Duececoupe. I'm new here and was just browsing when I saw your post and felt a need to respond. I'm not sure how old you are or what your background is, so my apologies if I'm sayings some things you already know.

First, conformation shows are not "beauty" contests. People don't spend a lot of time and money to have someone tell them how cute their dogs are. Conformation shows are for the purpose of having breeding stock evaluated as representatives of the breed. Ones that are evaluated as being outstanding representatives are rewarded with championships. In this manner, breeders and dog fanciers are attempting to ensure that only the very best dogs are bred. This involves a lot of things, such as how well the dog is put together (something experienced dog people can tell by putting their hands on them and feeling how the shoulders are angulated, how well their fronts and rears are put together for proper movement, etc.).

Second, the breed clubs have been working for a long time -- even before spaying and neutering became a popular banner for everyone, knowledgeable or not, to pick up-- to get the message out about the importance of limiting the numbers of dogs. That's why the people who belong to those clubs that breed also participate in conformation shows. In addition, most, if not all of the breed clubs encourage their members to have spay/neuter clauses in their contracts when they sell pet-quality pups. Most conscientious breeders breed rarely and when they do so, it's to improve the breed, not just to have puppies to sell. To improve the breed, they breed the "best to the best." Breedings, therefore, are done with a great deal of thought and care. Although I'm sure that every responsible dog breeder you could talk to would tell you that there's nothing more rewarding than having a healthy litter of pups, they limit the number of litters they have, for the good of the breed and their dogs. They only breed their bitches a few times (sometimes just once, but most I know rarely breed their bitches more than three times).

If you're saying that you think that ALL dogs in existence today should be spayed or neutered, I'd like for you to think for a moment about what that would mean. It would mean that this would be the last generation of dogs on earth, if this were to be extended worldwide. The dogs that we have right now would be the very last ones ever to be in existence. I can't imagine that you hate dogs and want to see them become an extinct species, so I'm guessing that you just haven't thought things through to their logical conclusion.

You may be saying, "what about all of those poor dogs in pounds and rescues?" There's a popular saying now that every pup born deprives one of those dogs from ever finding its "forever" home, but this isn't true.

First off, some people don't want or aren't equipped to take on the medical or temperament problems that pound and rescue dogs often have. For those angels who are willing to do so, I say they are very special people. But the facts are that many of the dogs that end up in there do have medical or temperament problems that their previous owners couldn't cope with. Sometimes, it's not the dog's fault -- as in the cases of abuse. Sometimes, the problems are the result of poor breeding (meaning that they were bred by someone who was NOT conscientious about breeding good quality pups and only wanted to breed to have puppies for sale).

At any rate, I don't think it's fair to point fingers and judge someone badly because they want a healthy, temperamentally sound dog. Rescue dogs aren't for everybody, and I don't think a person should be made to feel guilty because of that.

Second, in regards to forcing responsible breeders who show their dogs in conformation shows to spay and neuter their dogs because of the dogs in rescue -- that's not fair either. They are working hard to try to breed the very best dogs possible and make the breed better and better with each generation. You'll rarely find a well-bred dog in a rescue situation because responsible breeders stay in touch with the people who buy their puppies and have stipulations in their contracts that if these people can't or don't want to keep the dog, the breeder will take them back. Believe me, the last thing a reputable breeder wants is for one of his or her pups to show up on a rescue page. Their peers can be brutal when things like this happen, even if it's a bit of a stretch, as in a case I saw not long ago. Back in the late 1990s, a well-known breeder allowed another well-known breeder to use one of her studs. Breeder A, the stud owner, lived several states away from Breeder B, the owner of the female. Both had good reputations as breeders. Out of the ensuing litter, there was one pup that went on to get her championship. Now, remember, Breeder A's part in all of this was to provide stud service and she never had any of the ensuing pups from this one litter in her possession.

So Breeder B's pup from the litter gets her championship. Shortly thereafter, Breeder B was in an accident and died. Because she'd done the respoinsible thing and made provisions for her dogs in her will, all of them, including the champion female, went to Breeder C, another well-known, reputable breeder.

Breeder C had the champ pup for several years and even had a litter from her. By this time, Breeder A is way out of the picture, right? Wrong. When Breeder C died last year, her husband, who wasn't involved in dogs and didn't know better, allowed an auction company to talk him into putting his wife's dogs up for auction (Breeder C, unfortunately had not made provisions for her dogs in her will, but being young and healthy, probably didn't even have a will).

One of the dogs in the auction was the pup that was sired by Breeder A's stud almost 10 years ago. A rescue organization saw Breeder A's name on the pedigree in the auction bill and went to the auction, spending a lot of money to collect her. A good portion of that money came from Breeder A, whom the rescue had contacted when they saw her dog in the auction. Now, remember, Breeder A had NEVER had possession of this dog and may not have even seen her in person. Still, when her fellow club members found out that a dog that had been sired by one of Breeder A's dogs nearly 10 years earlier had through a tragic course of circumstances, ended up in an auction, she was severely and publicly rebuked and criticized.

So I suggest that you understand that the breed clubs already know the problems with dog overpopulation and have been working to do their part to not contribute to the problem for many, many years.

If you'd like a cause that would have more meaning, let's talk about the backyard puppymillers who fly under the radar with no one to regulate their actions -- the ones who start breeding their bitches on their very first season and breed them everytime they come into heat so they can sell puppies -- and continue to do this until the bitch is spent and her health is ruined, while still calling her their family pet. The breeders who steal reputable breeders' pedigrees (easy enough to do on the Internet) and then lie to their customers about their dogs' pedigrees -- who never register their litters with the AKC and tell their customers that the dogs they sell are AKC registered and need nothing more than the bogus pedigrees the breeder himself or herself has typed up on their computers for registration. These are the types of dogs that end up in rescue and pounds because their breeders didn't care and probably didn't know how to breed temperamentally sound, healthy dogs.

Let's also talk about the groups that are paying poor people in third-world countries to raise mixed breed dogs to import into the U.S. and put into shelters that don't have enough dogs to justify them staying in existence. Are you aware that in Massachusetts, one of these dogs had rabies and bit three people, leaning a representative there to introduce legislation making it illegal for shelters and rescues to continue importing dogs to boost their numbers?

About this for a cause -- irresponsible pet ownership. A lot of dogs end up in pounds and rescues simply because their owners don't want them any longer -- either they're getting old, or they have health problems the owners don't want to pay for, or they're simply tired of that dog and want another puppy.

I hope I haven't offended you, but I think you're literally barking up the wrong tree when you start implying that the breed clubs don't understand the importance of spaying and neutering, and implying that conformation dogs should be neutered, which would defeat the purpose of the shows.

Doggslover You sound very intelligent when it comes to dogs. We need more like you around.

[Tammylyn]

Indeed...very nicely said...very wel thought out, I very much admire your passion, and I must say I adopt alot of rescue dogs and your right, great dogs after lots of work to undo issues that got them there in the first place or from living a while with lots of other dogs! I do not slam or undermind the rescues....most of em are awesome people and do miracles with the dogs they get and my hats off to them, unfortunately most rescue dogs need work and reassurance for many years before they open their wings an fly...every one I have gotten from rescue has turned out to be a very special dog that just needed a forever home and lots of love, attention, and yes...work.

Thanks for your post and the good information, lesson learned here! :)

[dogonit]

Impressive posting..your reply needs to be copied and posted on many forums...We are owned by both show and rescue alike..and indeed rescue dogs come with "baggage"...and indeed are not foreveryone...that is why we in the rescue world have waiting lists and do a home check and many reference checks...you must be certain because the dog is for life....our rescues are Pugs and our show is Brussels Griffon...loving breeds and temperment almost identical....Mills and BYB are the ones that "get my dander up"...ok I am old and use old gal terms...lol....responsible folks that is what is needed in this world...and forums such as this one to educate the masses....