The Conformation/Showing Forum

[ckelly]

By popular demand, the conformation and showing forum is here!

[Drazhar]

dont like dog show dog breeders, they ruin tomany breeds:mad: :mad:

[fuzzdomestic]

I agree with you Drazhar, but they do have their place preserving breeds that would simply disappear if there were no shows. It gives a basis for proving dogs where their original task is outdated. This backfired, however, with the bulldog and a few other breeds. There are some positives to conformation events. Would we still have Shar-peis if there were no dog shows? How about the Irish and Russian Wolfhounds? I'd rather not see Labradors and Brittanies in the show ring, simply because their original purpose is still so popular, there's no reason for it. I understand your point and believe the same myself, but you really can't make blanket statements like that.

[Drazhar]

tomany dog breeds that have so called been saved from extinction have been made worthless, english bulldogs really do suck now days, all the health problems they have, and my fave breed of dog has a ruined side to it also, german shepards are not what they used to be either, nor are rotts, great danes, english mastiffs.

yes i beieve there would be irish wolf hounds and shar-peis, but they would be rare!...i would rather have them be RARE! as opposed to unhealthy and worthless... its a complete joke to call some of these dogs by there original name. there is no way you can justify calling todays english bull dog a "english bulldog" its very different from the old one, and there are a couple of breeders that still breed the old times bulldogs! and english bull terriers. older times rotts and german shepards also.

[valwhalen]

Hmmmm Drazhar, now I'm intriqued. Since you say that you don't like "show breeders", I'd really be interested in just what ARE the type qualifications you seek out in a breeder, what makes a reputable/responsible breeder?

Fuzzdomestic write:
"I'd rather not see Labradors and Brittanies in the show ring, simply because their original purpose is still so popular, there's no reason for it."

The Labrador is a very versatile breed. It can do so much more than it's original purpose. Out of curiosity, what do you believe it's original purpose was in Newfoundland, do you know?

[fuzzdomestic]

They currently are used as retrievers... You shoot a duck and the dog goes and gets it. They used to do something with fisherman(can't remember exactly what), but that purpose is long outdated. I'm not a fan of Labs, simply because I've never met one that didn't either growl or jump on me, so I never paid too much attention to them. I know they can do lots of things besides retrieve, but when it is nearly impossible to show and retrieve with the same dog, there's something wrong. They are good service dogs, bomb dogs, human remain dogs, and I think they'd make pretty dang good Schutzhund dogs if they were a little more intimidating (as would poodles). I do like the idea of conformation shows and attend them often to learn about the breeds, but conformation needs to be backed by working ability, it cannot stand alone. When the only thing you are working towards is physical appearance, it becomes much more subjective than it should be and who wins is completely up to what that judge believes the standard says. There is no "He got the duck, he came back" it is "I think this dog is closer to standard than this one because his chest is wider/he is stockier/etc." Have you ever looked back to what Boxers looked like 40 years ago? They wouldn't have a chance in the show ring today. They've gotten so much lighter in the head. Labradors, back when they were first accepted by AKC, had a lot more leg than they do today. Judges began rewarding breeders who bred for shorter legs, so most doing conformation have to breed for shorter legs. Here's an article on the subject, if you don't believe me: http://www.labradornet.com/shorter.html. If it is all based on how a judge reads the standard, it's nearly impossible to keep a working dog.

[valwhalen]

You haven't met a well bred Labrador yet have you? Many breeds shown in conformation are also eligible for attaining working titles/certificates. How do you know people showing in conformation are not also doing other things with their dogs? You make alot of unfounded assumptions for these dogs and breeders you have not met. Please do not generalize.

I hate to burst your bubble... but they still are a water dog.

[fuzzdomestic]

Many breeds... I'd rather it be every breed whose job still exists. I know most people showing are not doing other things simply because such a rift exists between field and show dogs. Have you ever put a show Lab next to a working Lab? They are two entirely different breeds. I have dealt with both show breeders and field breeders. How do you define "well bred", anyway? I've dealt with well trained ones. I do have the pleasure of working with an SAR trainer on the odd occasion, but I still don't really care for her dogs. Don't mind me, I'm just generalizing, apparently, by saying what I've seen, what I've learned from people who have been working with dogs for longer than I have, and what I've read written by people who breed conformation dogs.

[valwhalen]

Actually, there is only one breed of Labrador. Most will agree though that there are now 3 pretty easily recognized "styles" of Labradors in the USA. What some call the "English" style, the "American" style, and the "field bred" style.

Remember that the Labrador is/was a gentlemen's hunting companion and was developed as such in the country credited with developing the breed (England) and whose standard (the FCI standard for the breed written by the country thus credited with the development of the breed) most every other country in the world uses.

[fuzzdomestic]

There is only one breed of Labrador. There is such a large gap between the two types that they can nearly be considered seperate breeds.

[Drazhar]

Hmmmm Drazhar, now I'm intriqued. Since you say that you don't like "show breeders", I'd really be interested in just what ARE the type qualifications you seek out in a breeder, what makes a reputable/responsible breeder?

easy! keep them to there original form and temperment and "health"

the way they look have been changed, there health have been destoryed..

all for show ring looks.... this subject angers me:mad:

[luv4gsds]

Most "show breeders" go by the standard that is set forth in the kennel clubs. I for one blame the show judges. They are the ones that say ya or nay to what is in the show ring. And yes they are some show breeders that also title their dogs in other areas.

[Drazhar]

show bred new times bulldog
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/DrazharMOB/Various%20dogs/017.jpg
and skull
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/DrazharMOB/Various%20dogs/bulldog-skull-md.jpg

these dogs have many many! health issuse including HD and heart problems and most of all, big time breathing problems...all for show...

old bulldog before show breeding....
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/DrazharMOB/Various%20dogs/ConanOct06B.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/DrazharMOB/Various%20dogs/CarliChomper.jpg
ill find a picture of skull later, but these are healthy 80-90lb dogs, pretty much FREE of HD, NO heart problems, NO! breathing problems.. and very able to work.

im glad there are a couple of breeders that still breed the old non show ring ruined bulldogs.

[luv4gsds]

Not trying to start anything, but is not the first picture a English Bulldog and the third picture a American Bulldog. Just asking.
The first three pictures are of the English Bulldog and the last one is of a American Bulldog.

[Drazhar]

sorry i cant really understand your post, what has american bulldogs have to do with this?.

[luv4gsds]

Maybe I didn't make my self clear so I'll type it again sorry.

In the third picture you posted after the skull that dog looks like a American Bulldog.

[valwhalen]

"there health have been destoryed..

all for show ring looks"


More generalizations.

[valwhalen]

Drazhar,
You hate the show breeders (as you call them) supposedly because they don't care about "health".... do you think the puppy mills and back yard breeders take advantage of the tools available to do hereditary screening of the sire & dam, research pedigrees horizontally and vertically, before doing a breeding ?? Hmmm, lets see in my breed, the minimum clearances you'll see most "show breeders" doing are OFA hips & elbows, yearly ACVO/CERF exam eyes and DNA testing prcd-PRA form of progressive retinal atrophy... more and more also doing carido clearance.

[i heart cresteds]

Forgive me but there is really no recognized breed other than the Bulldog. There is the French Bulldog which is a completely different breed but, according to AKC, CKC (Canadian Kennel Club), FCI and The Kennel Club recognized breeds there is neither an American Bulldog or an English Bulldog.
Actually, the bulldog known today began morphing quite a long time ago. Changes began to be made to the breed quite a long time ago. I have to agree that I too have problems with any breed that requires extremes like the bulldog but I don't blame today's "show breeders". These are the people who are trying to do right by the breed with testing and carefully planned breeding programs.
Just as "teacup" anything should be avoided like the plague people should avoid bulldogs advertised as "old time" or "Victorian", "Regency" or anything other than plain old Bulldog.

[luv4gsds]

American Bull Dog

http://www.american-bulldog.com/aba_directory.htm

http://www.abna.info/

http://www.americanbulldog.ch/

http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/Breed-Standards/ab-standard.htm

http://www.abcfinland.com/

http://www.bluebloods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2003_show_link.htm

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanbulldog.html

http://www.american-bulldog.com/

http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegistrationBreeds.htm

http://www.abra1st.com/

Recognition
ABA, ARF, UKC, NKC, NABA, ARBA, JDJB, ABCC, AABC, NKC, CKC, APRI, ACR

The founder of the American Bull Dog
D. Johnson of Summerville, Georgia

English Bulldog

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/englishbulldog.html

http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegistrationBreeds.htm

http://capebulldog.freeyellow.com/

http://www.mbcoa.org/

http://www.bulldogclubdobrasil.com/english/bulldog.asp

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/

Recognition
CKC, FCI, AKC, UKC, KCGB, CKC, ANKC, NKC, NZKC, APRI, ACR

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/

[i heart cresteds]

Sorry, but according to the websites for the kennel clubs themselves the recognized breed is the bulldog.
That's what I go by. I can make up any old name and say I register goodness knows what. I am not saying that that's what is going on with the links you provided but as I said, the kennel clubs do not list American or English Bulldogs.

[luv4gsds]

Here they are. Plain as the nose on your face.
American Bulldog Association Directory
http://www.american-bulldog.com/aba_directory.htm

The American Bulldog
http://www.abna.info/abna_standard.htm

NKC (which is a kennel club)
American Bulldog Breed Standard
http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/Breed-Standards/ab-standard.htm

American Bulldog Club Finland (which is a kennel club in Finland)
http://www.abcfinland.com/

Breed Club for American Bulldogs in the UK (Breed Club for American Bulldogs in the UK)
http://www.bluebloods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2003_show_link.htm

American Bulldog (shows pictures and description)
http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanbulldog.html

AMERICAN BULLDOG
Official U.K.C. Breed Standard (which is a kennel club)
History
http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegistrationBreeds.htm


National American Bulldog Association
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6945/naba.htm

AMERICAN BULLDOG BREED STANDARD
http://www.arba.org/AmericanBulldogBS.htm

The Johnson American Bulldog (click on the Info button)
http://www.johndjohnsonkennels.com/
************************************************** ********

English Bulldog

English Bulldog ( with pictures and description)
http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/englishbulldog.html


UKC (which is a kennel club)
ENGLISH BULLDOG
Official U.K.C. Breed Standard
Revised April 1, 1998
http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegistrationBreeds.htm



Origins of the English Bulldog
http://www.bulldogclubdobrasil.com/english/bulldog.asp


English Bulldog (Continental Kennel Club)
http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/Ads.aspx?BreedNum=94

[fuzzdomestic]

The difference between an English Bulldog and an American Bulldog is something like 40 lbs and 15 inches(educated guesses, but I haven't worked with either in a few months). They are different breeds with different histories, although I think they share a distant ancestor. American Bulldogs are still being used as hog dogs, while English Bulldogs are, as far as I know, only show dogs and companions. The Old English Bulldog is a topic that I've only ever glanced over, but I believe it is a true breed being bred back toward the original form of a bulldog. i.e. the existance of a muzzle, longer legs, overall squarish body. They're based off the dogs you see in the old paintings.

http://www.seefido.com/assets/images/autogen/a_The_English_Bulldog_3.jpg
English ^ 40-50 lbs

http://www.hundezeitung.de/hundekunde/american-bulldog.jpg
American ^ 60 to 125 lbs

[Drazhar]

that 3rd pic after the skull i posted is nothing like an american bulldog....

i even know of the breeders in uk.

sorry i took ages to reply but i aint been on here in a few weeks.

[luv4gsds]

What ever Drazhar. I'm glad you know the breeders in the UK. Good for you. Now I can throw you a party.

[Drazhar]

What ever Drazhar. I'm glad you know the breeders in the UK. Good for you. Now I can throw you a party.

lol im far more glad i know them than your glad, and also...how sad of you to need to throw a party over someone you dont know actually knowing a certain breeder...?

[luv4gsds]

lol im far more glad i know them than your glad, and also...how sad of you to need to throw a party over someone you dont know actually knowing a certain breeder...?

Do you normally jebber jabber like this all the time or is it when you have a brain fart?

I do not care who you know, really I don't. So get over yourself and move on. I have. This topic is about Conformation/Showing it is not about Drazhar.

[fuzzdomestic]

Would you two just quit arguing? It's not going anywhere and it's not going to go anywhere. If you have more information, please share it, but do your best not to make it personal.

[Working Dog]

I too dislike what show rings have done to certain breeds. For instance 99%of the showline GSDs can't do the work they were breed to do. Although showline GSDs can obtain a Sch title, which is and should be one of the requirements by reputable breeders in order to even consider breeding, they are nowhere near the caliber of true working line Sch titled GSDs.

[luv4gsds]

Working Dog, not trying to step on toes here but the GSD was first and foremost a herding breed. And to me Sch title isn't everything. They are a number of things a GSD can do besides Sch. The first thing I want to see is the health and the temperament then working titles. Now and days it is very easy for a dog to get a Sch title. I think that is the reason why they are more dog sports popping up. Like French Ring, Mondioring and American Street Ring.

If the AKC and the rest of the beauty pageant registries would have working trails along with their showing this probably would help a whole lot.

[Angela72]

Gee this forum brings up alot of heated topics, i have purchased a basenji pup from a breeder, which i intend to show. I can see both sides of the debate, Some breeds have really needed ajusting for the better, but then other breeds i think they have taken it a bit far.

[lrquinn]

Maybe this thread is worn out, but since most breed standards are set early on, in many cases, the original concept of the dog should be pretty close to the description.
Older breeds, of course have evolved greatly. Even they have remained pretty consistand over the past 1-200 years. Without a standard, appearance could be all over the map. If you look at almost any breeds developement, you see a great deal of variation in size and appearence.
Irish Wolfhounds, although an ancient breed, have remained basically true to the original concept. A good healthy specamine, not bred just for size, can still do what it was bred to do. Many of the hunting and working breeds are also still capable.
A field class Lab may win a competition over a show dog, but in general the show dog can still do the job. Maybe not as fast or accurately, but non-the less do it. I think there is room for both types. The real question is if breeding for specific function compremises the health of the dog.
That's another subject.

[Sacymn]

you can see all the pages a visitor looks at when browsing the visitors and clicking the look for the last page and thats the last page they browsed, is that what you mean?

[effinly09]

Well...i was kind of waiting for people to...respond...heh...i guess i will keep all the games you suggested for sure avenger thanks for your help. huggles you now i will just go through and ogranize i guess -

[Haggis]

Actually, there is only one breed of Labrador. Most will agree though that there are now 3 pretty easily recognized "styles" of Labradors in the USA. What some call the "English" style, the "American" style, and the "field bred" style.

Remember that the Labrador is/was a gentlemen's hunting companion and was developed as such in the country credited with developing the breed (England) and whose standard (the FCI standard for the breed written by the country thus credited with the development of the breed) most every other country in the world uses.

Why doesn't the American Kennel Club recognize the FCI standards, but has drawn up its own standards?

[skyhavenhusky]

Showing dogs is all political. It's all about who you know and who knows you. I show my Siberian huskies, sometimes you win sometimes you don't. It's all dependind on the judge and who's entered with you. To be honest we give AKC too much power. I've seen Huskies with horrible confirmation and no movement, and yet they still manage to place.